对话中欧欧方院长杜道明：迫于政治压力，中美商学院互动受阻｜钛媒体独家

中欧国际工商学院院长（欧方）杜道明（Dominique Turpin），图片由其本人提供

经济增长放缓的时候，降本增效成为大小企业的求生之道。裁员，也成为了企业拯救难看的财务报表最快捷的路径。

曾经职场人的成长的目标，管理层，是“降本增效”这项议题中，首当其冲的目标。在企业的追逐盈利表现之下，很多时候，管理者成为了首要的牺牲品。

对于年长的管理者来说，职业的危机感已经达到了一个前所未有的高度。

中欧国际工商学院院长（欧方）杜道明（Dominique Turpin）同样认为，新一代企业管理者面临很多新的挑战。

杜道明在近日与钛媒体APP的对话中表示，曾经的营销、市场、财务、运营管理等硬核专业知识技能的重要性，已经远远不及软技能。而管理层的软技能的核心，则涉及落地执行战略，以及在经济不确定的情况下，激发员工更多动能。

尤其是对于亚洲公司的管理者来说，管理好不同代际之间的员工的预期，对组织架构和人员构成繁杂的大公司来说，更加重要。

因为在亚洲的社会文化等因素影响之下，顶尖的管理者被认为是无所不能，而年长的高层往往很难听得到且听得进年轻一代的声音。也因此，对亚洲的传统大型企业来说，打造组织年龄代际的多元性，与美国企业管理中性别和种族等议题同样重要。

自1991年来到中国教授管理学课程，杜道明见证了中国经济腾飞和创新企业迅猛发展的三十年。

“当我最初来到中国执教时，学生们曾问我，企业为何要追求利润？”杜道明回忆起当初的惊讶。然而，时至今日，已经不再有学生会问这个问题。

他注意到，中国新一代的企业家和管理者们关注的焦点已经转移——他们现在更关心的是如何将产品推广到全球市场，以及如何在国际舞台上建立品牌。

杜道明在欧洲、拉丁美洲和亚洲的市场营销和国际战略领域拥有丰富的教学、咨询与研究经验，尤其擅长品牌管理，客户导向、营销战略、亚洲商业战略等方面。2022年9月，他加入中欧国际工商学院并出任欧方院长。

这三十年同样也是中欧国际工商学院从初创到成长的三十年。

1994年，中华人民共和国政府和欧洲联盟委员会共同创立了中欧国际工商学院，双方的办学单位为上海交通大学和欧洲管理发展基金会（EFMD），已形成三大洲五地（中国上海、北京、深圳，瑞士苏黎世和加纳阿克拉）办学的全球化格局。

目前，中欧已培养校友逾30000名，遍布全球90多个国家和地区，并累计为超过26万人次的海内外中高层管理人员提供管理培训。

10月14日，英国《金融时报》（Financial Times）公布了2024年全球EMBA课程百强榜单，中欧国际工商学院Global EMBA（GEMBA）课程取得历史性突破，首次在这一国际权威榜单中荣登榜首。

获得该项成绩的一些主要因素，是其在生源质量和赋能学生职业发展方面的相关指标上保持了稳定提升。

然而，全球管理教育正面临艰巨挑战。后疫情时代，无论是商学院还是学生群体，思维和心态都变得更加保守和自闭。

杜道明说，现在人们更多的担心是，去了商学院之后，回到公司，工作岗位已经没有了。与此同时，近年来国际交流受阻，也一度严重冲击了商学院教育的发展。

杜道明告诉钛媒体APP，中欧受到哈佛大学商学院的案例教学法影响颇深，一度也与美国的商学院交流频繁，但现在一些美国的商学院称，迫于政府的压力，不得不减少与中国的商学院的合作交流。

杜道明认为，越是局势紧张的时候，沟通与交流就变得更加重要。真正聪明的学生应该是在危机的时候去学习，这样的人通常也能够得到更好的机会。

无论发生什么，从政治和经济角度看，中国仍是一个非常重要的国家。在全球的经济与商业合作的这一项议题上，中欧国际工商学院GEMBA校友成立了众多活跃的俱乐部，如新成立的出海俱乐部，打造帮助中欧同学和校友企业“走出去”的平台。

以下是钛媒体APP与杜道明的对话实录（中文翻译版）：

钛媒体APP：中欧国际工商学院取得了英国《金融时报》全球EMBA排行历史最高成绩，也是有史以来中国的商学院取得的最佳成绩。您认为中欧国际工商学院能够取得如此成就的关键原因是什么？

杜道明：我认为有几个因素。当经济增长的时候，公司需要更多人才。这就是为什么经济增长时，商学院通常也会增长。这是第一个因素。第二个因素是，商学院领域的竞争非常激烈，甚至在中国内部也是如此。但在某种程度上，这是好事，因为它提高了商学院的整体质量。

商学院在思想交流、吸引顶尖学生和开发一流课程方面，存在着非常强的良性竞争。我认为经济发展和竞争激烈是我们取得这样成绩的原因。

钛媒体APP：您观察到近些年中国与海外的高管教育领域，分别都发生了哪些比较关键的变化与挑战？

杜道明：我们观察到学生和雇主希望我们教授的主题发生了变化。最初，重点放在会计、财务、市场营销和运营管理等领域。然后，转向了战略思维和项目管理。如今，软技能变得越来越重要。

软技能包括在不可预测的世界中培养正确的公司文化、实施策略、有效沟通和激励人员。因此，已经从会计和财务等硬技能演变到战略思维，现在又演变到专注于执行的软技能。

策略通常很直接，通常制定者和参与者，包括学生，感兴趣的都是智力与战略的挑战。然而，真正的挑战在于执行——动员人员和管理细节。执行可能被视为乏味，但它比仅仅制定策略更困难、更关键。

钛媒体APP：入学中欧国际工商学院的新一代管理层和企业家呈现了哪些与以往群体不同的特征？学院有没有因此做出教学或者课程上的调整？哪些调整在您看来是卓有成效的？哪些其实被验证是不合适的？

杜道明：中国发生了显著变化。我还记得1991年第一次在这里教书时，那是一个完全不同的中国。我曾记得有学生问为什么公司需要盈利。今天，没有人会问这样的问题了。学生们在成熟度上已经有了重大转变。

如今，随着中国经济增速的放缓，许多人都在问：“我如何才能向世界其他地区销售产品？我如何才能在中国之外建立品牌？”在国内和国际同时取得成功的兴趣日益增长。作为一名市场营销和品牌建设教授，我看到越来越多的中国公司专注于在全球范围内建立品牌，这将非常重要。

在教学方法上，我们已经超越了哈佛商学院影响下的案例教学法。今天，我们更加灵活，结合讲座、游戏、模拟和案例研究来提升学生的学习体验。

在最近一次有600名商学院院长参加的意大利会议上，我们讨论了考试的未来——有人建议，与其进行书面考试，不如与机器人进行面对面的考试，因为机器人更少偏见，更加中立。

看到技术如何塑造教育将是一件有趣的事情，因为这是历史上第一次技术在教育中扮演如此重要的角色。我们需要在利用技术和培养仍然必需的软技能之间找到正确的平衡。

钛媒体APP：青年人的交流历来是国与国合作的重要窗口和风向标，就您看来，后疫情时代国际之间，青年人的交流发生了什么变化？

杜道明：这里存在一点悖论。在新冠疫情之前，人们对各种形式的沟通更加开放。疫情之后，一些人变得相较封闭，尽管我们正在看到缓慢的复苏。学院教授在与学生交流的过程中也有注意到学生们在新冠疫情之前更加开放，而回到那种开放程度的过程一直很缓慢。

此外，政治不确定性也影响了国际合作。例如，我们过去与美国商学院有着广泛的合作，但现在它们受到美国政府的压力，要求减少与中国的接触。这很不幸，因为当紧张局势升级时，更需要增加沟通。

来中国留学的外国学生数量显著减少。我希望这是一种暂时的情况，因为无论政治发展如何，中国仍然是一个重要的国家。在紧张时期，增加沟通至关重要，我希望更多聪明、有才华的人会继续选择在中国学习。

钛媒体APP：您也提到了经济增长正在放缓，在经济下行的周期，当前大众开始对一些精英群体产生一种“祛魅”的心态，而降本增效的趋势下，企业的管理层的危机感也到了一个新的高度，尤其是当一些外企开始撤离中国。这时候，商学院的课程赋予管理人员的意义，有没有发生一些变化？

杜道明： 情况已经改变。这不仅仅是在中国，而是全世界都如此。在不确定的时期，人们犹豫是否要上商学院，担心毕业后工作机会可能不再等待他们。

通常情况下，学生更倾向于在经济状况良好时学习。然而，我认为最聪明的人是那些选择在危机时期学习的人，因为他们往往能在经济复苏时获得更好的机会。

钛媒体APP：作为市场营销专家，您如何看待AI大模型对市场营销的影响？因为数字化转型一直是营销领域的重要课题，科技互联网公司一直在重塑市场营销的模式。AI大模型时代里，AI营销也成为了一个热门话题。大公司和创业公司各自应该秉持什么应对之道？

杜道明：人工智能是一种工具。市场营销的目的，以及公司普遍的目标，是为社会创造价值，而不仅仅是为股东。公司存在的目的是为了解决问题，使人们的生活变得更好、更便捷、更舒适。

电脑和手机帮助解决问题，就像数字工具如人工智能所做的那样。关键是要避免被数据所淹没，而应该专注于你想要为社会或消费者解决的问题。

在执行方面，许多公司存在代际差异。年轻员工理解技术，而年长的高管可能就不一定了。挑战在于管理这些不同代际的员工，他们各自有不同的期望。

许多公司努力将技术知识转化为商业创意。作为商学院，我们的目标是培训年轻参与者，将技术知识转化为商业行动。

这需要改变思维方式，特别是在亚洲，领导模式传统上是等级制的。在新技术时代，领导者必须谦逊并愿意信任年轻一代。

初创公司面临的挑战不同，因为它们通常是由40岁以下的个人创立的。年轻的创业者往往更精通技术，更愿意冒险，而年长的人可能更倾向于规避风险。

钛媒体APP：所以在人工智能时代，您认为它更有利于大公司还是创业公司的创新？

杜道明：我最近与字节跳动的一位副总裁交谈，他提到随着公司的发展，推动创新变得越来越困难。大公司需要流程和层级结构，这可能会抑制创造力。在小公司里，人际关系更加非正式，这使得尝试更加容易。随着科技公司规模的扩大，这是一个重大挑战——它们越来越难以创新。

以下为对话实录原文：

TMTPOST: CEIBS has achieved its highest-ever ranking in the Financial Times Global EMBA 2024, marking the first time a Chinese business school has attained such impressive results. What do you believe are the key factors contributing to this accomplishment?

Dominique Turpin: There are several factors. When the economy grows, companies need more talent, and business schools also tend to grow as a result. That's the first factor. The second is the high level of competition in this region, even within China. In a way, this is positive because it elevates the overall quality of business schools.

There is a strong sense of healthy competition in attracting the best students and developing the best curriculum. So, economic growth and increased competition have been key reasons for our success.

TMTPOST: What main changes and challenges have you observed in the field of executive education in Mainland China and overseas in recent years?

Dominique Turpin: What we've observed is a shift in the topics students and employers want us to teach. Initially, the focus was on areas like accounting, finance, marketing, and operations management. Then, there was a move toward strategic thinking and project management. Today, soft skills have become increasingly important.

Soft skills include developing the right company culture, implementing strategies, communicating effectively, and motivating people in an unpredictable world. So, there's been an evolution from hard skills like accounting and finance to strategic thinking, and now, to soft skills focused on execution.

Strategy is often straightforward, and many executives and students are drawn to its intellectual challenges. However, the real challenge lies in execution — mobilizing people and managing the details. Execution can be perceived as tedious, but it is more difficult and crucial than simply formulating strategy.

TMTPOST: Compared to previous students, what are the distinct characteristics of the new generation of managers and entrepreneurs who have enrolled at CEIBS in recent years? Has CEIBS made any adjustments to its teaching methods or curriculum to cater to this new generation? Among these adjustments, which have you found to be effective? Which, if any, have proven to be unsuitable

Dominique Turpin: There have been significant changes in China. When I first taught here in 1991, it was a very different China. I recall one student asking why companies needed to make a profit. Today, no one would ask that question. There's been a major shift in maturity.

Now, with the slowdown in the Chinese economy, many are asking, "How can I sell to the rest of the world? How can I build a brand outside of China?" There is growing interest in being successful both domestically and internationally. As a marketing and branding specialist, I see more Chinese companies focusing on building brands globally, which will be very important.

Regarding teaching methods, we have moved beyond the case method, influenced by Harvard Business School. Today, we are more flexible, combining lectures, games, simulations, and case studies to enhance the student experience.

With the rise of AI, at a recent conference in Italy with 600 business school deans, there was discussion about the future of exams—some suggested that, instead of written exams, we might conduct face-to-face exams with robots, as robots are less biased and more neutral.

It will be interesting to see how technology shapes education, as it's the first time in human history that technology is playing such a significant role in learning. We need to find the right balance between leveraging technology and nurturing the soft skills that are still essential.

TMTPOST: Young people's communication has always been an important window and indicator of cooperation between different countries. In your observation, what changes have occurred in international communication and education among young people in the post-epidemic era?

Dominique Turpin: There is a bit of a paradox here. Before COVID, people were more open to various forms of communication. After the pandemic, some people became more closed-off, although we're seeing a slow recovery.

Some professors at CEIBS have noticed that students were more open-minded before COVID, and it’s been slow to return to that level of openness.

Additionally, political uncertainty has impacted international cooperation. For instance, we used to collaborate extensively with American business schools, but they are now under pressure from the U.S. government to reduce their engagements with China.This is unfortunate because when tensions rise, more communication is needed.

The number of foreign students coming to China has decreased significantly. I hope this is a temporary situation because, regardless of political developments, China remains an important country. Increased communication is critical in times of tension, and I hope more smart, talented people will continue to study in China.

TMTPOST: As you mentioned, the economy is slow down, during economic downturns, there is a growing disenchantment with the elite. Against the backdrop of cost reduction and efficiency enhancement, the sense of crisis among senior management has reached new heights, especially as some international companies withdraw from China. In this context, has the significance of attending business school changed?

Dominique Turpin: The situation has changed. It's not just in China but worldwide. People hesitate to attend business school during uncertain times, fearing that their job may not be waiting for them afterward.

Typically, students prefer to study when the economy is doing well. However, I believe that the smartest individuals are those who choose to study during crises, as they tend to secure better opportunities when the economy recovers.

TMTPOST: As a marketing expert, what is your view on the impact of AI Large Language Models on marketing? Nowadays digital transformation has always been a key topic in the marketing field, with technology companies reshaping the marketing business model. With the advent of the AI Large Language Models era, AI marketing has become a hot topic. In your opinion, how should large enterprises and startups address these challenges differently?

Dominique Turpin: AI is a tool. The purpose of marketing, and of companies in general, is to create value for society, not just for shareholders. Companies exist to solve problems, to make life better, faster, and more comfortable for people.

Computers and phones help solve problems, just as digital tools like AI do. The key is to avoid becoming overwhelmed by data and instead focus on what problems you want to solve for society or consumers.

In terms of execution, there is a generational gap in many companies. Younger employees understand technology, while older executives may not. The challenge lies in managing these diverse generations, each with different expectations.

Many companies struggle to turn technological knowledge into business ideas. As business schools, we aim to train young participants to translate technical knowledge into business action.

This requires a change in mindset, especially in Asia, where leadership models have traditionally been hierarchical. In the age of new technology, leaders must be humble and willing to trust younger generations.

Startups face different challenges, as they are typically founded by individuals under 40. Younger entrepreneurs tend to be more tech-savvy and willing to take risks, whereas older individuals may be more risk-averse.

TMTPOST: So, is it easier for large companies or startups to innovate in the AI era?

Dominique Turpin: I recently spoke with a vice president at ByteDance who mentioned that as the company grows, it becomes harder to drive innovation. Large companies need processes and hierarchies, which can stifle creativity. In smaller companies, relationships are more informal, allowing for easier experimentation. This is a significant challenge as tech companies grow larger—it becomes harder for them to innovate.（作者｜李程程，编辑｜胡润峰）